MikroKopter - Forum » BL-Ctrl » BL CTRL 2.0 PPM-Problem

BL CTRL 2.0 PPM-Problem

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Mal eine Frage an die Experten...

Ich habe 8x BL-CTRL 2.0, alle die selbe Firmware, gleiche Spannung, gleiche Leitungslänge, Standard Einstellungen, gleiche Motoren ( MK3638 )

Beim Starten laufen aber nur 7 an...
Es bringt auch nichts, mehr "Schub" zu geben, es laufen dann nur die 7 schneller. (alle das gleiche PPM-Signal)

Angefügte Bilder:
-Firmware (der Obere läuft, der untere mit der selben nicht)
-PPM-Signal (ruhe) (0.5ms/div)
-PPM-Signal (start), was 7 von den 8 auch machen

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Weiß da jemand Rat?

Edit: Ich vergaß zu erwähnen, das der Regler über das Koptertool und an einem Standard Empfänger Funktioniert.
Aber ich möchte eine andere PPM-Quelle nutzen, an der ja 7 von den 8 Funktionieren... Warum der eine nicht?

MfG TimoS
« Bearbeitet von TimoS am 29.03.2016 20:39. »
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TimoS meinte
Beim Starten laufen aber nur 7 an...

Have you checked this on BL-Motor-Ctrl 7: "PPM-input (Important: if the PPM-input is used make sure the 4-5 jumper is not closed)"?

TimoS meinte
Es bringt auch nichts, mehr "Schub" zu geben, es laufen dann nur die 7 schneller. (alle das gleiche PPM-Signal)

You say PPM signal, so that is the same 1 signal connected to all BL-Motor-Ctrls? Or is it rather 8 independent PWM signals connected to 8 BL-Motor-Ctrls?

Feel free to answer auf Deutsch.
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Hello,

no jumper closed. All the same ppm-signal. 7 ESC´s works, only one doesn´t, but on other ppm he worked also. (for example a receiver)


Feel free to answer auf Englisch.
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TimoS meinte
no jumper closed. All the same ppm-signal. 7 ESC´s works, only one doesn´t, but on other ppm he worked also. (for example a receiver)

I think there is some misunderstanding here. It cannot be the same one signal connected to all BL-Motor-Ctrls.

Would you be able to make a photo of the cables from the flight-ctrl (which ever it is) and how they connected to the BL-Motor-Ctrls?
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All Bl-Ctrl can connect to same PPM. PPM on Bl-Ctrl only Input.
I only connect all to one PPM for Debug and Testing.

Problem of one Bl-Ctrl be like non calibrated rc-oscilator.
Problem solved with other Bl-Ctrl.

Same issue on other Bl-Ctrl 2.0 of a friend.

Best regards
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TimoS meinte
All Bl-Ctrl can connect to same PPM. PPM on Bl-Ctrl only Input.
I only connect all to one PPM for Debug and Testing.

The reason I ask, is because it has always been very unclear if that input is actually a PWM input (I think so) and label is misprinted.

For the BL-Motor-Ctrl V3, HolgerB has not really make it clear if it is PPM or really a PWM.

http://forum.mikrokopter.de/topic-post544395.html#post544395

http://forum.mikrokopter.de/topic-post530857.html#post530857


Do you use 8 ports on your flight-ctrl with 8 cables, one to each BL-Motor-Ctrl, i.e. using 8 independent PWM signals (this is wanted to see on the requested photo)?
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https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsweitenmodulation

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puls-Pausen-Modulation

HolgerB meinte
All BL V3 (Single, Hexa, Quadro, Okto, DoubleQuadro) can be driven by a standart Servo-PWM signal.


HolgerB meinte
For starting the BL V3, the signal must have been once between 0,9 and 1,10 ms (zero setpoint).


With a non calibrated rc-oscilator, the 0,9-1,1ms can be diferent. I think that the problem.


The "flight-ctrl" has 8 diferent PPM/PWM ports. Normally, each Bl-Ctrl connected too single port.
I connected all too the same for testing only.

You can´t see the connection on Photo, its all assambled.
« Bearbeitet von TimoS am 05.04.2016 05:51. »
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TimoS meinte
With a non calibrated rc-oscilator, the 0,9-1,1ms can be diferent. I think that the problem.

Yes that could be the problem that makes one BL-Motor-Ctrl act different from another.

TimoS meinte
The "flight-ctrl" has 8 diferent PPM/PWM ports. Normally, each Bl-Ctrl connected too single port.
I connected all too the same for testing only.

So to be clear, we can conclude:

Your flight-ctrl outputs PWM, NOT PPM.

Your flight-ctrl has 8 independent PWM signals connected to 8 BL-Motor-Ctrls by 8 separate wires.

The label on MK BL-Motor-Ctrl V2 (and V3) is misleading, it should be marked PWM.


For your testing, you only used 1 ( of 8 ) PWM port on your flight-ctrl to connect to 1 BL-Motor-Ctrl at a time. You repeated that 8 times. I did not expect that, I thought you tested all BL-Motor-Ctrls at the same time.


Other observation, the German Wikipedia has 2 definitions of PPM (in 2 articles), the English Wikipedia has only 1. In German Wikipedia PPM(1): Pulsphasenmodulation and PPM(2): Puls-Pausen-Modulation.

In English Wikipedia different name is used. PPM: Pulse-Position-Modulation and refer to the German PPM(2). Which of those two names is the best, I do not know.
« Bearbeitet von Foersom am 05.04.2016 08:57. »
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Foersom meinte
So to be clear, we can conclude:

Your flight-ctrl outputs PWM, NOT PPM.

Your flight-ctrl has 8 independent PWM signals connected to 8 BL-Motor-Ctrls by 8 separate wires.

The label on MK BL-Motor-Ctrl V2 (and V3) is misleading, it should be marked PWM.

For your testing, you only used 1 ( of 8 ) PWM port on your flight-ctrl to connect to 1 BL-Motor-Ctrl at a time. You repeated that 8 times. I did not expect that, I thought you tested all BL-Motor-Ctrls at the same time.



That is right.

PPM is name for a Signal that be used for Servo, ESC etc.

PPM is a form of PWM, in this fact is the same.



Best regards
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TimoS meinte
PPM is name for a Signal that be used for Servo, ESC etc.

PPM is a form of PWM, in this fact is the same.

No, these statements are more confusing than clarifying.

The most common use of PPM is for the signal between a RC-receiver and the flight-ctrl. Here the signal has N channels (e.g. Graupner MX-20 HOTT has 12 channels) and is encoded into PPM with N+1 pulses (MX-20 has 13 pulses) for each frame. The frame is repeated 40-100 times per second, so duration of each frame is 25-10 ms (MX-20 frame is 22.5 ms). The signal is sometimes named PPM, sometimes SUM to indicate that it is a sequence of PPM pulses with multiple channels.
« Bearbeitet von Foersom am 05.04.2016 10:58. »
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PPM and SumPPM are different! SumPPM include all PPM-Channels!

8 Channel PPM => one Pin for each channel = 8 Pins
8 Channel SumPPM => [(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)(BREAK)] = 1 Pin (channel after channel with a break on the end for sync)

The PPM signal of a receiver (NOT SumPPM!!!) work directly with Bl-Ctrl, because it is a valid PPM/PWM Signal!

In this case, PPM is PWM.
PWM and PPM are different to SumPPM (Summensignal/combined PPM (CPPM))


To say "PPM is for the signal between a RC-receiver and the flight-ctrl" is true if each channel has seperate pin. But with one pin is wrong and confusing other people!

All channels over one wire = CPPM/SumPPM/Summensignal
All channels, each one pin = PPM/PWM
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Timo, theoretisch kann ich hier nichts beitragen aber würde es Dir helfen wenn ich Dir einen BL-C V2.0 zum Test schicke?
Er funktioniert(e) bis zuletzt in meinem Avatarflieger. Den habe ich heute zerlegt um einen anderen mit den Teilen zu bauen.
Er hat einen Defekt! Der Plus-Lötpad ist ab. Man muß Plus an einem Elko- Anschluß anlöten.
Wenn der Regler für Dich funktioniert kannst Du ihn für einen Zehner plus Porto behalten. Sonst schickst Du ihn mir zurück.

Grüße,
Clemens
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TimoS meinte
...
Problem solved with other Bl-Ctrl.
...


Habe schon einen Austausch-Regler bekommen ;)

Aber vielen vielen Dank für dein Angebot, finde ich super!
Bevor du ihn aber mal in die Tonne schmeißen solltest, dann sag mir lieber bescheid...

Obwohl, vllt brauch ich noch einen zum spielen... Ich melde mich die Tage nochmal :)


MfG
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TimoS meinte
PPM and SumPPM are different! SumPPM include all PPM-Channels!

I used to think the same way, but I have found many people call Sum-PPM and CPPM signals for PPM, so I had to write that it is sometimes called PPM sometimes Sum-PPM.

Have you noticed that the illustrations on the PPM(2) Wikipedia page you linked to calls a Sum-PPM for a PPM signal?

On the FlightCtrl V2.x MikroKopter calls the Sum-PPM signal for just PPM.

TimoS meinte
The PPM signal of a receiver (NOT SumPPM!!!) work directly with Bl-Ctrl, because it is a valid PPM/PWM Signal!
In this case, PPM is PWM.

Receivers do not have individual PPM as outputs, they have individual PWM outputs, see e.g. Graupner HOTT receivers.

A PWM signal has a pulse followed by a long break for the rest of the frame. The duration of the pulse is 1.0 to 2.0 ms signals the value, the break + pulse duration is 20 ms.

A PPM signal use the pulse position as the value, essentially it has a pause followed by short pulse, the duration of the pause is the value. However to know where to start there also has to have a start pulse. So it has 1 start pulse + 1 signal pulse. After this follows a longer break until end of frame. Individual PPM signals are never really used, it is always used as a Sum-PPM signal.

PPM is not PWM. To mix these two names only cause confusion.

TimoS meinte
To say "PPM is for the signal between a RC-receiver and the flight-ctrl" is true if each channel has seperate pin. But with one pin is wrong and confusing other people!

It is used that way, e.g. on a Graupner receiver, e.g. GR-24, there is a Sum-PPM signal and there is 12 PWM signals (not 12 PPM signals). MikroKopter uses the Sum-PPM for the FlightCtrl and calls it PPM on the FlightCtrl V2.x PCB.
« Bearbeitet von Foersom am 12.04.2016 02:59. »
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TimoS meinte
PPM and SumPPM are different! SumPPM include all PPM-Channels!

8 Channel PPM => one Pin for each channel = 8 Pins
8 Channel SumPPM => [(1)(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)(7)(8)(BREAK)] = 1 Pin (channel after channel with a break on the end for sync)

...

In this case, PPM is PWM.
PWM and PPM are different to SumPPM (Summensignal/combined PPM (CPPM))

... But with one pin is wrong and confusing other people!

All channels over one wire = CPPM/SumPPM/Summensignal
All channels, each one pin = PPM/PWM


The PWM is most often used for the output of a brushed esc so using it to describe a servo signal is confusing too. There are esc out there which besides PPM (= servo PWM) accept (brushed) motor PWM as input for example esc with blheli firmware.

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