MikroKopter - Forum » Software » Can someone point me in the right direction please ?

Can someone point me in the right direction please ?

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Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
Beiträge: 130
Ort: Monaco
I felt in love with multi-rotors a while ago now and more specifically with MK platforms. I started playing with the MK hexa XL and I enjoyed it for a while before I started building different machines, some bigger, some a lot bigger, some smaller. Each required me to learn more and more about the system parameters but I believe that I still have a lot to learn.

It takes me really a long time to make sure a machine is configured nearly correctly properly and this makes me think that I am not applying the correct procedures.

So far, when i build a new machine, I take my time, and pay a lot of attention to details and especially to geometry, I make sure the compas and ACC calibration are really well done before I go further. I normally move to the Gyro PIDs, then Altitude PIDs to end up with the GPS PIDs. There are however quite a few parameters that I don't touch because I lack procedures on how to set them up.

I found the procedures I am using mainly on the french forum, but they seem quite old, and often not complete as they don't show/explain all parameters and when to use them.

Basically my question is: Can we find somewhere "the correct" procedures on how to configure my MK based multis "correctly" without using "methods" given by unknown people in 2012 ;) I need to mention that most of my frames are not MK ones, but from Altigator (OnyxStar Hydra-12), Gryphon Dynamics (X8-1000, Y6-900), Freely (Cinestar 6) and a little Dex Mini)

For example, for the Gyros, I found some information on how to set the PIDs, but the Gyro screen contains not less than 13 parameters. I have not found the method on how to use/set the other parameters.

I have the same questions for all parameters for the Gyro, Misc, Navi-Ctrl, Navi-Ctrl2 and Altitude screens. I can find explanations on the parameters, but I am looking for the best methods on how to set the parameters. Or, at least a good method to do so.

Thanks in advance. I will greatly appreciate your help. ;) 8)
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Feb 2011
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Hi,

look at the "help" in the koptertool, you find the default settings and declaration ;), but the MK will fly perfect at default settings :D

best regards,
Stephan
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
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Hi Stephan, you know, i have been flying these things for over two years now, I can assure you that nothing flies perfectly at all with the default parameters, it can be ok, but not perfect at all. Can you tell me please how can the default parameters can accommodate machines which are as different as a Dex Mini which is 860g complete with LiPos, telemetry and video Tx and a GD X8-1000 with a total weight over 8 kilos and a diameter of one meter motor to motor ??? !!!

If it was the case, none of the screens with all the possible parameters would exist. Maybe you should learn a bit more too ! :) :)

I can easily find the explanations for each parameter, I am not looking for this. I specifically mentioned that I am looking for methods and procedures to use and configure the PID regulator parameters, in which order and the influence of the other parameters.

With the default parameters I have some machines jumping up dans down, some giving the toilet bowl effect, some being very sensitive to wind, all have different behavior and need specific tuning.
Entwickler, Admin
Registriert seit: Feb 2006
Beiträge: 3799
Ort: Ostfriesland
If your copter do not fly good with the default settings, you should try to find out - why - before trying to change any configuration parameter.

Typical problems are related to the frame: too flexible, vibrations, not aligned, ... , use of vibration damper: too loose, too strong...

If you have a toilet bowl in the default setting - changing the settings will not solve the basic problem.
You should better look for magnetic influence by cables, Lipo etc...

Of course you can optimise some values to your copters, but - again - they should fly good with the default settings, before you start your tuning...
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
Beiträge: 130
Ort: Monaco
Hi, thanks both for your replies, It isn't always the same thing that I have. And I am a little surprised about the responses, (but yet I always have to learn a lot :) ) because the agility of a compter will depend a lot on the weight and the power of the machine, and the PIDs will require to be adjusted for each machine...at least this is the feeling that I have.. :)

For example,

a) when I first flew the GD-X8, with no Gimbal, it hovered incredibly well, first time in the air. When I added a gimbal+ camera (about two kilos extra) I didn't get the same "music" the X8 was "hesitant", shaking, like having vibrations. I wondered if it came from the gimbal. I removed it and added two small weights (the one to practice sport) and "velcro'ed" them to the X8, same "vibration" issues. In such a case, what should have I done ? (New GD-X8 copter, about 8 kilos, all perfect, moves to 10 kilos and not good anymore ?)

b) I installed (with a shoehorn) a FC 2.2+ Nav 2.0+ compas + GPS 2.1 into a Dex Mini, the frame is in polyester, very rigid, it isn't so fun to use with default settings because it is constantly going up and down (one/two meters rapidly with vario altitude). In such a case, what should I do ?

c) I just installed some HW with few hours acquired new a year ago (FC 2.5, NC 2.0 + compas + GPS 3.0) in a FreeFly Cinestar 6. The Frame is like new. AAC calibration is very good, motors angles were checked very carefully, but with vairo altitude and GPS on it goes up and down slowly, but it does. Same question...what should I do ? It also has a bad tendency to turn very slowly on the yaw axis..


Probably, I should start looking at the logs, I have not done this much, I am just thinking at this as I write this message. Can somebody help me to decipher the log messages at the beginning ?

Do you have a FAQ with the typical issues we get when flying and what are the thing to look at in order to solve the issue, i.e.:

problem A: arms too flexible
problem B: vibration damper for FC too loose
problem C (toilet bowl) : check for magnetic influences on compas (values > xxx in log file in Micro SD)
problem D (copter keeps hitting trees) : change the pilot
etc...

And back to my first question, are there no tutorials to help fine tuning the machines using the Gyros, altitude, Navi screens which can be used ? or maybe they should never be used ;)
« Bearbeitet von papymouzot am 15.08.2016 19:14. »
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jun 2013
Beiträge: 1245
Ort: Luxembourg
papymouzot meinte
b) I installed (with a shoehorn) a FC 2.2+ Nav 2.0+ compas + GPS 2.1 into a Dex Mini, the frame is in polyester, very rigid, it isn't so fun to use with default settings because it is constantly going up and down (one/two meters rapidly with vario altitude). In such a case, what should I do ?

Is this the Dex Mini you mention? Please provide links so we know what you refer to.

The design looks good. I understand it is watertight, but that would give a problem for air pressure sensor (altitude sensor) which needs to be exposes to the natural air. If it sits under a closed container it will not work well.

papymouzot meinte
c) I just installed some HW with few hours acquired new a year ago (FC 2.5, NC 2.0 + compas + GPS 3.0) in a FreeFly Cinestar 6. The Frame is like new. AAC calibration is very good, motors angles were checked very carefully, but with vairo altitude and GPS on it goes up and down slowly, but it does. Same question...what should I do ? It also has a bad tendency to turn very slowly on the yaw axis..

I am not sure what slow turning means: Does it do that by it self and does it always turn in same direction?
Alternatively do you mean that it turns too slow when you want to yaw?

Compass magnet errors can also be an issue. Check the ground where you fly from, e.g. if flying from above underground parking there is iron-reinforced concrete in the ground and that iron gives false magnetic direction.

papymouzot meinte
Probably, I should start looking at the logs, I have not done this much, I am just thinking at this as I write this message. Can somebody help me to decipher the log messages at the beginning ?

Use the MK GPX Tool to read the GPX files from the NaviCtrl SD card.

papymouzot meinte
And back to my first question, are there no tutorials to help fine tuning the machines using the Gyros, altitude, Navi screens which can be used ? or maybe they should never be used ;)

In the wiki there is a lot info, but sometimes difficult to find. I agree the wiki should be improved, there are e.g. parameters in the settings that is still waiting to be explained.
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Nov 2012
Beiträge: 239
Ort: Ankara
Zitat
In the wiki there is a lot info, but sometimes difficult to find. I agree the wiki should be improved, there are e.g. parameters in the settings that is still waiting to be explained.


I totally agree with @Foersom. I think , MK team should give more info and take more tutorial video about parameters. @Ingo @Holger
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
Beiträge: 130
Ort: Monaco
Good morning Foersom,

Thanks a lot for your reply, I will try to be as precise as possible with my replies to your own questions.


Foersom meinte
papymouzot meinte
b) I installed (with a shoehorn) a FC 2.2+ Nav 2.0+ compas + GPS 2.1 into a Dex Mini, the frame is in polyester, very rigid, it isn't so fun to use with default settings because it is constantly going up and down (one/two meters rapidly with vario altitude). In such a case, what should I do ?

Is this the Dex Mini you mention? Please provide links so we know what you refer to.

The design looks good. I understand it is watertight, but that would give a problem for air pressure sensor (altitude sensor) which needs to be exposes to the natural air. If it sits under a closed container it will not work well.



Yes, it is the Dex Mini. The Dex mini looks very nice, but is quite small. It is water tight only if I close the lid. It is powered by MT2208 KV1100 motors with 8" APC Props. I used BLV2 Single located in the arms of the frame and I had to build a flat bottom in epoxy to be able to install my 15mm FC supports.

Some very quick images of the build.

externer Link:
User image

externer Link:
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externer Link:
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externer Link:
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externer Link:
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externer Link:
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externer Link:
User image

You are right, if I seal the Dex, it becomes a total disaster, the Dex becomes un-controllable. With a 1/2in hole in the cover it becomes better, with a 3/4 in hole it seems OK. I will try to fly like this for a while before adding a gore-tex film to keep it water tight.


Foersom meinte
papymouzot meinte
c) I just installed some HW with few hours acquired new a year ago (FC 2.5, NC 2.0 + compas + GPS 3.0) in a FreeFly Cinestar 6. The Frame is like new. AAC calibration is very good, motors angles were checked very carefully, but with vairo altitude and GPS on it goes up and down slowly, but it does. Same question...what should I do ? It also has a bad tendency to turn very slowly on the yaw axis..


I am not sure what slow turning means: Does it do that by it self and does it always turn in same direction?
Alternatively do you mean that it turns too slow when you want to yaw?

Compass magnet errors can also be an issue. Check the ground where you fly from, e.g. if flying from above underground parking there is iron-reinforced concrete in the ground and that iron gives false magnetic direction.


I meant that the copter turns slowly on the yaw axis on its own. I understand the issue about the compas. But I don't know what values to look at on MK-Tools or the logs, what values are good, what values are not good. I use all my machines with a very similar hardware (MK 2.5, NC 2.0 + compas, GPS3) where can I find the values ranges I should expect to see if the trouble comes from the compas ?

Now, it is true that the road is made of reinforced concrete under the pink granite stones, But 3 meters above the road should not give any indues !?


Foersom meinte
papymouzot meinte
Probably, I should start looking at the logs, I have not done this much, I am just thinking at this as I write this message. Can somebody help me to decipher the log messages at the beginning ?

Use the MK GPX Tool to read the GPX files from the NaviCtrl SD card.


I have already used GPX-Tools, but I don't know much what values I should expect for all the possible values which are given out of the logs.

Foersom meinte
papymouzot meinte
And back to my first question, are there no tutorials to help fine tuning the machines using the Gyros, altitude, Navi screens which can be used ? or maybe they should never be used ;)

In the wiki there is a lot info, but sometimes difficult to find. I agree the wiki should be improved, there are e.g. parameters in the settings that is still waiting to be explained.





Thanks again
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Apr 2007
Beiträge: 2320
Ort: Hesel
Hi,

look at http://wiki.mikrokopter.de/en/MagnetError and the videos on the bottom of this wiki...
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
Beiträge: 130
Ort: Monaco
Thanks, I will do this in a short while. I need to insist on the fact that I do not have any magnet errors being reported by the telemetry now. I had some before using the external compass however.
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
Beiträge: 130
Ort: Monaco
Sorry, I don't understand the comments very well, in the post in the wiki. It says that the Earth field must be 95-105% before starting, but I have no warning for this. I could not find the warning message on the radio, is the Wiki up to date with the latest Graupner Firmware ? I could find it in MK-Tools of course, and with this multi, (Dex) I get EarthMagnet % = 82, quite low I suppose when I compare to what I read, but not when I compare to a multi which gave no issue, I could not see this parameter lol.

I miss the information about
much lower than xxx value very bad, check this
a bit lower than xx value bad, but not terrible, do this
in beyween x and Y, quite good, you can do this if you want...
higher than yy not very good, try this
much higher than yyy, very bad, you must do this...

For quite a few parameters, we have information about the variables, but not often about the values they can take and rarely on their effect, very rarely on how to fine tune them, it is a little frustrating.

Today, I can understand that some of the basic settings on my copters are not perfect, and would appreciate guidelines on how to detect, for example:

a lack of rigidity
a lack of softness
a lack of alignment
errors on ACC settings
errors on compas
errors on gyros

and of course how to solve them or guidelines on "how to"


On my radio, the "MK" telemetry screen is different from the one on this page, the comments also refer to software versions which are quite old I suppose, and I never played with these.

externer Link:
User image

What is the value circled in Red ? it keeps moving, slowly, on the Dex, but also on another "baby" which I just took to compare. :)




externer Link:
User image


Difficult for me to imagine that these two babies can fly perfectly, hover in relatively strong winds (not storms of course) with the same parameters ;)

With a lot of time, I can make my multis resist in windy situations and be quite nice to be flown, but it takes time, too much compared to the happiness of flying. My post was more on "How can I fine tune my "MK's" more rapidly and fly more" ?

In the region of the world where I live, I have wind each single day nearly. If I can't fine tune my multis to resist well in winds and gusts of wind, I can't fly, if I can't fly my toys, am unhappy..


One last thing, As I tend to forget a lot of things, I take a lot of notes in an electronic way, as soon as they will be sort of complete, they will be open for all to see and correct where I understood wrong :)
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jun 2013
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Ort: Luxembourg
papymouzot meinte
Sorry, I don't understand the comments very well, in the post in the wiki. It says that the Earth field must be 95-105% before starting, but I have no warning for this. I could not find the warning message on the radio, is the Wiki up to date with the latest Graupner Firmware ? I could find it in MK-Tools of course, and with this multi, (Dex) I get EarthMagnet % = 82, quite low I suppose when I compare to what I read, but not when I compare to a multi which gave no issue, I could not see this parameter lol.

Earth Magnet at 82% is bad, do not fly. Have you calibrated compass?

With the Dex Mini there will most likely be a problem with internal compass mm above battery and only a few cm from battery cables. The internal magnet sensor (compass) is on the NaviCtrl, it is the diagonal placed chip next to the debug port.

Also check inclination at your location. Read here.

papymouzot meinte
Today, I can understand that some of the basic settings on my copters are not perfect, and would appreciate guidelines on how to detect, for example:
...
errors on ACC settings
errors on compas

ACC setting: On a day without wind hover you micro-copter, switch PosHold off. If micro-copter stays on position the ACC (and balance) is right. If it drifts slowly to one side, switch PosHold back on, yaw it 180 degrees, switch PosHold off again. If it drift to the opposite side ACC is wrong. If it drift to same side as before it is wind pushing it (nothing to do).

Compass: If compass is not right, it is difficult to turn to a precise degree, the micro-copter seems to readjust back after you try to do small yaw (~5 degree). If it is bad it begins to waddle around and may even fly in doughnut shape (land immediately!).

papymouzot meinte
On my radio, the "MK" telemetry screen is different from the one on this page, the comments also refer to software versions which are quite old I suppose, and I never played with these.

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/981292IMG50381.png

What is the value circled in Red ? it keeps moving, slowly, on the Dex, but also on another "baby" which I just took to compare. :)

Is that a Graupner MC-32? I did not see you indicate that.

I do not use it but I think it is meter distance from home, and compass direction towards home.

For checking proper compass use text-telemetry screens.
« Bearbeitet von Foersom am 16.08.2016 14:35. »
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
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Ort: Monaco
Yes i did calibrate the compas when i changed from Internal to External. But I can try to do it again, it is quite easy. I will to it tomorrow. What are the values I should expect as a minimum ? at best ?

I had issues on the Dex Mini with the compas when I first tried it, I was obliged to use an external compas to get rid of the error messages.

I will double check most things tomorrow and try to report what I am getting.

yes I have a MC32. :)

Thanks a lot for your assistance ! More tomorrow !!
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jul 2015
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Ort: Monaco
Good morning,

I did a compas calibration again a few minutes ago and I obtained Earthmagnet[98] BUT this number has been constantly going down ever since, 96, 94, 92, 91... without me touching the Dex or the radio.

What are the values I should be expecting if it was good ?

I checked again the ACC calibration, not so easy as there is always a little bit of wind here, but each time It looked calm, I gave it a try. It sounded quiet at some point and I saved. Restarted with GPS on, and again, very scary, the Dex starts going forward, not full speed but fast, brrrr... it was much easier to play with without GPS. Maybe the tree cover is becoming too important, or I am overseeing some very important, other parameters.

Any suggestions are welcomed !

At the time I finish writing this message the EarthMagnet is Back to 106... So it wasn't only moving down ;)
Mitglied
Registriert seit: Jun 2013
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papymouzot meinte
I did a compas calibration again a few minutes ago and I obtained Earthmagnet[98] BUT this number has been constantly going down ever since, 96, 94, 92, 91... without me touching the Dex or the radio.

How low does it go? 96-106 % should be Ok.

If you are not sure check for false magnetic iron in the ground. Check with a classic compass as explained here.

papymouzot meinte
What are the values I should be expecting if it was good ?

That was explained here.

Remember to also check theoretical magnet inclination. For Monaco it should be ~59 degree.

papymouzot meinte
I checked again the ACC calibration, not so easy as there is always a little bit of wind here, but each time It looked calm, I gave it a try. It sounded quiet at some point and I saved. Restarted with GPS on, and again, very scary, the Dex starts going forward, not full speed but fast, brrrr... it was much easier to play with without GPS. Maybe the tree cover is becoming too important, or I am overseeing some very important, other parameters.

saved? The procedure I explained is only to check it. Perhaps you have never done ACC calibration correct.

After a software update or new build, before flight calibrate ACC.

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MikroKopter - Forum » Software » Can someone point me in the right direction please ?